And by the way, it was TYREESE who saved that baby from the prison. Carol’s cared for her since but she didn’t technically save her.
Actually Carol saved Judith twice from Lizzie. Soooooooooooo.
Actually, the baby wouldn’t have made it that far without Tyreese…
1) You said: “Actually, the baby wouldn’t have made it that far without Tyreese getting her out of the prison”
Yeah….no one is arguing that Tyreese didn’t save Judith. The thing is, Tyreese would not have survived if Lizzie had not shot the two people shooting at him. Lizzie would not have learned how to shoot from anyone other than Carol (because apparently no one thought of it), Carol’s actions indirectly saved Tyreese’s life, who then saved Judith. Had Tyreese died at the prison, Judith either would have died at the prison, or Lizzie and Mika would have taken Judith, but they weren’t likely to make it far without the help of an adult. Lizzie saved Tyreese, who then went with Lizzie and Mika and carried Judith, helping keep them alive. ERGO, Carol indirectly saved Judith’s life.
2) You said: “if Carol had focused on how fucked up Lizzie was, said something to Hershel or whoever, then perhaps Lizzie wouldn’t have been like that”
A) Firstly, Carol was thinking about how messed up Lizzie was. She tried talking to Lizzie several times about how walkers are not people. She talked to Lizzie about it in “Infection” at the fence, in the beginning of “Indifference” (before Carol left to go on the run with Rick), when Lizzie was trying to play with a walker and Carol killed it, and the night before Lizzie killed her sister.
On the night before Lizzie kills Mika, Carol has a talk with Lizzie, saying, “Do you understand now?” meaning, “Do you understand that walkers are not people and that they are dangerous?” Lizzie replies that she does and she also says “I know what I have to do now.” Carol, given Lizzie’s actions earlier that day (shooting walkers to save her sister) takes that reply to mean that Lizzie knows that they aren’t people and that they are dangerous. Carol understandably did not know that when Lizzie said, “I know what I have to do now,” she meant that she was going to kill her sister and let her turn. How could she? Had I been in Carol’s situation, I don’t think I would have taken that statement to mean that Lizzie intended to kill her sister. Would you?
B) Are you actually suggesting that it would have been possible for Hershel to talk sense into a person with mental illness? That Hershel talking to Lizzie somehow could have prevented Lizzie from having thoughts in her head that walkers were still people? That Hershel talking to Lizzie somehow would have “gotten rid” of the delusions that Lizzie had that lead to her killing her own sister? If dealing with mental illness were that easy, mental illness would not be such a serious problem in our society. Your belief that somehow Hershel could have made it so that “Lizzie wouldn’t be like that,” shows an utter lack of ignorance about mental illness (or a willingness to overlook the issues of mental illness so that you can assign blame to Carol for “not doing enough” in your opinion)
May I ask what exactly you think it is that Hershel would have done differently had Carol told him about it? What do you think Hershel would have done that would have prevented Lizzie from continuing to have a mental illness that lead her to think she needed to kill her own sister? I’m very interested in an actual response of what, specifically, Hershel could have done to prevent this, not just some vague and meaningless answer of “Well, he could have talked to her and looked out for her.” That’s a bullshit answer. Give me specifics (if indeed you’ve given any thought to what specifically Hershel could have done).
3) You said: “OH and Carol herself said she should have seen it”
Yes, and Tyreese said, “You couldn’t have known.” Both Carol and Tyreese knew that Lizzie had some sort of mental illness. But neither Carol nor Tyreese saw any indications that Lizzie intended to kill living people in their group. The day before Lizzie kills her sister, she appeared to show progress by helping kill the burnt walkers that attacked her and Mika. Carol took this as an indication that Lizzie was improving and that she was finally realizing that walkers are not people. After Lizzie did that, can you really blame Carol for thinking that maybe Lizzie was starting to understand? Can you realistically expect Carol to guess that Lizzie meant that she was going to kill Mika and Judy and let them turn? Personally, I don’t think it’s a logical jump to go from “Lizzie killed walkers and seems to understand that they’re dangerous” to “Lizzie is going to kill her sister.”
If you’re going to blame Carol for not reading Lizzie’s mind and knowing that Lizzie intended to kill her sister and Judith, it seems fair that you would blame Tyreese for that too, given he also knew that Lizzie was not well. Carol told him that she was confused about walkers and he saw the way that Lizzie screamed at Carol when she killed the walker that Lizzie considered “her friend.” It’s curious that you only blame Carol for “not seeing it.” Hmmmmm……
4) You said: “and MMB said Carol lost her nurturing side bc she was so focused on survival skills sooooooo”
Firstly, let’s take a step back and look at the definition of “nurturing” according to dictionary.com : 1) to feed and protect 2) to support and encourage, as during the period of training or development 3) to bring up; train; educate
If you look at those definitions, they mention protecting, supporting, encouraging, training, educating. That is EXACTLY what Carol did for the children at the prison and out on the road. Not a single other person at the prison was even thinking about the safety of the children if they end up in a dangerous situation on their own. Just Carol. She was teaching them skills that they need to know if they have any chance of surviving in this world.
Carol was training and teaching the children at the prison how to safely and properly use weapons in order to protect themselves if they are in a situation where they need to do that. That IS a form of nurturing. Teaching children how to defend themselves, rather than coddling them and not preparing them for worst case scenarios, IS nurturing. It’s not a typical way to think about nurturing, but it is a form of it.
Secondly, Carol was also nurturing in terms of emotional support. Here are examples of scenes where Carol was emotionally nurturing that you must have missed (or willfully forgotten so that you can continue believing the misconception that Carol “is no longer nurturing”):
1) The entire scene where Carol escorted Lizzie and Mika to see their father who was going to die. When Mika tearfully looked back at Carol and said, “We have to get Dr. S,” Carol softly, said, “He’s been bitten. Dr. S. won’t help.” She didn’t give Mika false hope that her father would make it. That would have been cruel to give her such hope when it simply wasn’t the reality. Carol was standing in the room with Lizzie and Mika as they said goodbye to their father. She was there to be emotional support and to put down their father when he did die to prevent him from reanimating and attacking his own daughters.
When Lizzie stops Carol and volunteers that she and Mika should be the ones to do it, Carol looks at her and says, “Are you sure?” Carol did not suggest that Mika or Lizzie should be the ones to do it. Lizzie suggested it. When Lizzie said she was sure, Carol stood not far behind her, watching her and making sure she was okay. Carol was watching Lizzie very carefully as she stood over her father with the knife, checking to see if Lizzie was okay and if she would be able to go through with it. When Carol noticed that Lizzie was shaking, Carol stepped forward, touching Lizzie’s arm and telling her, “It’s okay. It’s fine,” meaning that it’s okay if Lizzie couldn’t go through with putting down her own father. Rather than forcing Lizzie to go ahead with it, Carol takes the knife from her and puts down their father while Mika tells Lizzie to look at the flowers. After Carol does this, she goes Lizzie and Mika and puts her arms around them as they’re crying. That’s an indisputable example of Carol being nurturing towards Lizzie and Mika and being there for them emotionally.
2) When Lizzie is outside by the fence, looking at walkers, Carol goes to talk to her and to Mika. Lizzie starts saying, “He’s dead. He was special and now he’s dead.” Carol, thinking Lizzie is talking about her father, appears to pull Lizzie towards her, comforting her, and Carol says, “I know, and I’m sorry.” When Carol does this, she is showing Lizzie that she cares that Lizzie is in emotional pain. (when Carol at first thinks that her emotional pain is over her dead father…not a walker). This is a clear example of Carol showing her concern for Lizzie’s emotional well-being. This IS nurturing.
3) Later, when Carol realizes that Lizzie was upset over a walker being killed, Carol goes to see Lizzie at the fence again and tells her, “You don’t feel sorry about that walker. You feel sorry that your father died.” Lizzie nods her head, appearing to agree that Carol is right. Carol then steps forward to cut off a flower to put in Lizzie’s hair, to try to cheer her up in some way. She very gently puts it in her hair and says, “there,” making Lizzie smile a little. This is a clear example of Carol showing her nurturing side by trying to cheer Lizzie up and put her in a slightly better emotional state.
4) When Lizzie shows up outside of A-Block to tell Carol that she doesn’t feel well, Carol immediately moves towards her to take her in her arms. She holds Lizzie for a few seconds before she has to escort her into cell block A. As she’s leading her towards the door, Carol speaks in a reassuring and soft voice, telling Lizzie that Glenn is going to look after her and make sure she “feels nice and toasty.” Lizzie hesitates before going in and she turns back to hug Carol again. Carol holds onto her for a few more seconds before she has to send Lizzie into A-Block. All of Carol’s actions in the scene are perfect examples of Carol showing her nurturing side.
5) At the beginning of “The Grove,” there is a scene where Lizzie and Carol are talking as Mika and Tyreese sleep. At one point, Lizzie mentions how she saved Tyreese by shooting two people. After Lizzie says that, Carol says, reassuringly, “You had to. You saved Tyreese.” Carol likely said this because she thought that Lizzie was talking about shooting those two people because she felt guilty about it: about taking two people’s lives (it turns out that wasn’t the case, as Lizzie was only sorry that she shot them in the head, preventing them from “coming back” but Carol didn’t know that).
Carol wanted to alleviate what she thought was Lizzie’s guilt by telling her that it was the right thing to do because she saved Tyreese (because in fact, it was the right thing to do, killing those two people who were attacking Tyreese). This shows that Carol was thinking about Lizzie’s emotional state and trying to make Lizzie feel better emotionally about rightfully killing two people. This exchange shows how Carol was considering Lizzie’s emotional state after everything that happened at the prison. She didn’t want Lizzie to feel upset with herself for killing two people who were attacking the people that they loved at the prison.
6) When the group (Carol, Tyreese, Mika, Lizzie, and Judith) arrive at the house in the grove, Carol tells Lizzie and Mika to wait outside with Judith while she and Tyreese sweep the rooms in the house. She tells Mika to get out her gun in case she needs to use it. It just so happens that she does need to use it, as a walker stumbles over the porch railing behind them and Mika takes a few shots and finally kills the walker. Had Carol not taught Mika and Lizzie how to use weapons, Lizzie, Mika, and Judith could have died right then. A few seconds after the shot, Carol is the first one out the front door, running over to Mika, Lizzie, and Judith. Carol gently helps Lizzie to her feet and sees that Lizzie is crying and upset. Carol asks her in a concerned voice, “Are you okay? Were you scared?” She doesn’t just tell Lizzie to “buck up” or something like that. She is genuinely concerned about what is upsetting Lizzie. That’s a clear demonstration of Carol’s nurturing side.
7) When Carol hears Lizzie and Mika screaming as they run away from the burnt walkers on the train tracks, Carol immediately drops the bucket of water she was carrying to run towards their screams. When she arrives on the scene, she shoots the walker that has a hold of Mika’s foot, and then tells Mika and Lizzie to get behind her and Tyreese. Carol’s maternal instinct to protect Lizzie and Mika is a perfect demonstration of Carol’s nurturing side.
Additionally, after they have shot all of the walkers, Carol hugs Lizzie and praises her and Mika by saying, “You did it,” (referring to them killing walkers). She showed that she was proud of them for their skills in shooting and for being brave in a dangerous situation. That is what it takes in this world to survive, so Carol encourages them to that end. Part of the reason Carol hugs Lizzie is because she knows that it took a lot for Lizzie to kill walkers, when earlier that day Lizzie became very angry with Carol for killing a walker that tried to attack her. The hug is also Carol’s way of trying to comfort Lizzie after what just happened, where Lizzie and Mika are still quite shaken. This is another clear demonstration of Carol’s nurturing side.
8) The night following killing the burnt walkers, Carol offers to teach Mika and Lizzie how to roast the pecans that they found. Carol smiles at them as they crack the pecans and bits of the pecans go flying across the room. They’re smiling too. This scene shows how Carol isn’t all about survival. When they were on the train tracks, it’s understandable that Carol is more focused on issues of survival because they are much more vulnerable without a shelter, without a water source, etc. But when they’re in a house, they have plenty of food and water, Carol does become more at ease and teaches Mika and Lizzie how to roast nuts…the sort of the thing that she might have done as a mother before the apocalypse.
These eight scenes that I mentioned demonstrate that Carol does indeed still have a nurturing side in terms of emotional nurturing. So it would be factually inaccurate to say that “Carol lost her nurturing side,” as in she no longer has a nurturing side at all. Such a claim simply does not match up with the facts.
As a closing remark, I would like to point out how very interesting it is that you are so very critical and unforgiving of Carol for what you deem to be her “lack of nurturing” in season 4, but you don’t seem to have a problem with Rick not being as nurturing as he could have been towards his children in season 3 (when Rick wasn’t too busy taking imaginary calls from dead people and chasing an apparition of his dead wife, of course). Very interesting
I look forward to your response.